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Talk:Michael Collins
Collins is just controversial enough that adding the OTL paragraph made sense. TR 17:31, 27 November 2008 (UTC) No need to justify adding an OTL paragraph, I'm coming to believe more and more that it should be our standard operating procedure. I'm not sure about the MP category, though. Granted I don't know his early life too well. Turtle Fan 03:05, 28 November 2008 (UTC) :I was surprised to learn that he was an MP myself. TR 05:21, 28 November 2008 (UTC) ::Funny, prior to Bobby Sands's election in the early eighties Sinn Fein refused to participate in British elections. Was he (again I know much less about him than I should) like John Adams, a believer in playing a peaceful role within the empire until he saw such atrocities that he was forced to conclude only a revolution would give redress? And only then joined Sinn Fein? ::I do know he wrote an essay praising "the world's greatest empire" on some sort of civil service exam. His defenders maintain he didn't mean it but needed to do it to pass the exam. Turtle Fan 16:00, 28 November 2008 (UTC) Pulling a Donut here: TR, where did you see that he was a member of the British Parliament? He was a member of the Irish Parliament, and for that reason he used MP after his name. And the Irish Free State's parliament had to swear allegiance to the King, just like Canada's or Australia's. Could that have been what you were thinking? Turtle Fan 01:31, June 11, 2010 (UTC) :According to wikipedia, he represented Cork in the UK parliament from 1918-1922. After that, Cork was part of Ireland. So for four (well, closer to three), he was part of the UK parliament. TR 02:19, June 11, 2010 (UTC) ::While simultaneously commanding an urban guerrilla war against them? That's a slight conflict of interest. ::Oh, here we go: He won the election but refused to take his seat, instead setting up a Parliament in Dublin with other Sinn Fein members who had won Commons seats. The seats Sinn Fein had won sat vacant until the treaty. Turtle Fan 02:57, June 11, 2010 (UTC) :::Ok, so, since he was legally entitled to have the seat, I'm ok with leaving him in that category. On the other hand since he doesn't appear to have actually taken the position...I suppose he could be removed. TR 16:08, June 11, 2010 (UTC) ::::I suspect Lloyd George would have found some way of disbarring him if he'd tried to claim the seat, either through some legal maneuver or because he flat-out arrested Collins as soon as he landed in . . . oh, hell, wherever ferries sailing out of Dublin for England landed. Does Parliament have a procedure for impeaching its members? It must have come up at some point in their history; it seems like everything that can happen there has happened at some point through the centuries. ::::So is the test for whether a person is an MP his having been elected or his having taken his seat? In the US Congress it's the latter, but I believe in the UK an MP is an MP the minute his or her election as such is certified. I know a Government is a Government the minute the sovereign asks an incoming PM to form one (which is before the first formal seating), and he can't form a government with someone who's not an MP, can he? Then again, no one gets a ministry or a Cabinet post in his first session (though as I said, anything that can happen in Parliament probably has) so perhaps they can be brought into government from their seats in the previous parliament. But that parliament was dissolved when the sovereign called for an election. Oy, my head hurts. :::::Actually, cabinet members (and even the PM) do not have to be MPs although that is customary practise. In the past, there have been cases where a party won a majority of seats but the party leader lost the election for his own seat. The example I have in mind was Mackenzie King. At the time of the election, he was PM and the G-G asked him to continue. He then ran in a by-election in a safe riding after that MP resigned to allow the election. More recently, there have been cases where the PM retires (usually but not always about a year or so before an election) and the party choices someone who is not an MP as party leader. He then becomes PM and either runs for office in a by-election or waits until the general election if it is to be held soon. :::::In the case of cabinet members, the PM usually appoints the individual to the Senate. While not untoward, it isn't something the public cares for so if it happens it is usually only one cabinet position. ML4E 00:02, June 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Interesting. Stories of political maneuvering fascinate me. I'm trying to imagine a US Senator resigning so the majority leader can run for his seat, and the majority leader surviving accusations of carpet-bagging and crooked-bargaining. Of course, I'm sure we've got maneuvers that would horrify you guys. Turtle Fan 01:36, June 17, 2010 (UTC) :::::::MP is more like a congressman than a senator. You can have party operators elected in safe seats, partly as a reward (pay is $100K+ per year), partly to expedite their work although appointment to the senate is more likely. Getting one to resign so someone else can be elected MP (not just a PM but also someone who the PM wants in cabinet) can be part of the deal. ML4E 03:47, June 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::Give up your seat for someone else and you get kicked up into the Senate? Is that the usual offer? Turtle Fan 05:36, June 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::Maybe ML4E can offer some insight. Ottawa's Parliament follows London's in so many of these finer points of law and ceremony that I'd be willing to assume they do so here as well. Turtle Fan 16:52, June 11, 2010 (UTC) :::::With MPs, they need to take an oath of office when elected and are not considered MPs until they do. This usually takes place a day or so after the election, after the results for the riding are certified. The oath does include pledging allegiance to the Queen so it would be problematic in the case of Michael Collins. ::::::So he should be removed from the category? I had heard of Sinn Fein MPs not being seated because they refused to swear an oath to the sovereign but I thought it was from the 1970s. They won five seats in last month's general election and I'm not sure whether they accept those. I suspect they do since Blair showed a willingness to meet them halfway, but I just don't know. Turtle Fan 01:36, June 17, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Probably should be. The case of the Sinn Fein MPs (and the Scot Independence MPs) sounds similar to the Block Québécois (Federal Québéc Separatist Party). They are seated and I don't know what they do about the Oath. ML4E 03:47, June 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::The Scots and Plaid Cymru have taken their seats. This I remember because they were critical to Cameron's Plan B: If the Lib Dems and Tories hadn't been able to form a coalition, the two nationalist parties could have given the Tories just enough seats to run a majority government. Sinn Fein was not included in the math. ::::::::Of course, even if the UK were to dissolve, Elizabeth would still be Queen of Scotland; the crown union predates the total union by over a century, and in Wales it's been that way even longer. So a rabid Scottish nationalist is every bit as capable of swearing allegiance to the Queen as is a Canadian, even one who led the charge for patriation. With the Irish and the Quebecois, the situation is different. Turtle Fan 05:36, June 17, 2010 (UTC) :::::Sorry for the delay in answering, I have been having troubles with my Internet Connection for the last week. ML4E 00:02, June 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::::Well glad you're back now. We passed 800 on the Historical Figures category and started a category for adulterers, which also passed 800. Turtle Fan 01:36, June 17, 2010 (UTC) :::::::Thank-you. Now pull the other one. ;-) ML4E 03:47, June 17, 2010 (UTC) ::::::::When we started Adulterers I was expecting it to hit triple digits right away. I guess HT's reputation for writing hot, steamy love scenes into his books precedes him. (I personally know at least one guy who started TL-191 and gave up on it because he was tired of all the sex. I encouraged him to keep at it and bought him the next book in the series--WiH, I think it was. Same result.) I guess